The long flight does NOT have to be on the same day, it is
acceptable to have a stop, but it must be as it says below
[regulation] landings at three places, with one a straight
line of 250 NM. I would log the flight as stages, with the
citation of 61.129 in the remarks, with notes that it was a
continuous trip, with stops at three airports. This may
have already been meet with you previous experience. I
would endorse you on the trips you listed, but the issue is
what the designated examiner wants. Ask your CFI who he
would send you to for the test and then both of you should
speak to the eaxminer. But nowhere in the regulation does
it say "one day" so as long as the flights are all legs
longer than 50 miles and the longest is 250 miles straight
line from the departure, you should be OK.
Be sure the flights are SOLO, no passengers allowed, no dual
allowed.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl
§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided
in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a
commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and
single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of
flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be
in airplanes.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which
includes at least-

(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10
hours must be in airplanes.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in
§61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least-

(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5
hours must be in a single-engine airplane;

(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a
retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch
propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant
seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of
training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable
pitch propeller;

(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of
a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting
of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
miles from the original point of departure; and

(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for
the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the
date of the test.

(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on
the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part,
which includes at least-

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical
miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three
points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least
250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the
longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of
at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10
landings (with each landing involving a flight in the
traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control
tower.

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
|I cannot find an answer on the FAA Q&A site (the one with
the personal
| login, but which in fact appears to be rather bare), so I
wrote to
| them. However they often don't reply with anything
meaningful, so I
| would appreciate any references anybody here can dig out.
|
| I am doing the CPL in the UK and the CFI says that it all
needs to be
| done on the same day. The winter weather here is dreadful
and doing a
| ~ 600nm trip (there and back) under VFR is quite
difficult, unless I
| skirt around the coastline at low level, on autopilot, all
the way to
| Scotland. I have the IR also but can't really do it that
way :) It's
| also a waste of a lot of fuel for what might be a
pointless logbook
| entry.
|
| This is what I wrote to them:
|
| **************
|
| I am doing the FAA commercial certificate, and need
guidance on the
| 250/300nm VFR solo flight with three landings.
|
| I have about 700 hours and have flown all over Europe, and
have lots
| of flights in my logbook which are along the lines of
|
| 500nm
| 500nm
| 2 days' stop
| 500nm
| 500nm
|
| Some get closer to a 1-night stop:
|
| 25/8/03 EGBW LFBT 544NM
| 26/8/03 LFBT EGBW
| 26/8/03 EGBW EGKB
|
| or are much longer than 300nm GC distance:
|
| 31/8/03 EGKA LFBZ 444NM
| 31/8/03 LFBZ LEAX 417NM
| 3/9/03 LEAX LFBZ
| 3/9/03 LFBZ EGKA
|
| and some have a number of landings but never 3 on the same
day:
|
| 12/9/04 EGKA LSZG 374NM
| 12/9/04 LSZG LSPV 59NM
| 16/9/04 LSPV LSGS
| 16/9/04 LSGS LSPV
| 17/9/04 LSPV LGKR 690NM
| 18/9/04 LGKR LGST
| 23/9/04 LGST LGKR
| 24/9/04 LGKR LFKB
| 25/9/04 LFKB EGKA
|
| etc
|
| I cannot find a flight which has all 3 landings on the
*same* day.
|
| Also, is it necessary for all 3 landings to be at
different airports?
|
| **************
|
| Recently, somebody sent me this, purporting to come from
John Lynch
| himself, but I cannot find an online reference to it. I
have tried
| googling on various verbatim phrases from it but nothing
turns up.
|
| >
| >>Quote:
| >>QUESTION: A question has come up regarding §
61.129(a)(4)(i) from an
| >examiner in our district.
| >>
| >>A private pilot conducted a cross-country flight from
Pompano, Fl to
| >Virginia making ONE stop in South Carolina. He stayed
overnight visiting friends
| >and the next day he returned to Florida using the
reverse route. He now wants
| >to apply this cross-country flight to meet the
requirement for §
| >61.129(a)(4)(i).
| >>
| >>The questions are: 1) If this is one flight, how many
days can elapse and
| >still be counted as one flight? i.e. one night, three
nights, 2 weeks, 1
| >month, etc?
| >>
| >>ANSWER: Ref. § 61.129(a)(4)(i) and § 61.1(b)(3)(ii);
Yes, it is a good
| >cross-country. This cross-country can be counted for §
61.129(a)(4)(i) purposes
| >and also for § 61.65(d)(1) purposes.
| >
| >>If my geography is correct, a cross-country flight from
Pompano, Florida to
| >Virginia and return is a ". . . cross-country flight of
not less than 300
| >nautical miles total distance." And the first stop in
South Carolina is ". . .
| >at least is a straight-line distance of at least 250
nautical miles from the
| >original departure point" (i.e., Pompano, Florida). And
the cross-country
| >flight involved ". . . landings at a minimum of three
points . . ." (i.e.,
| >airport at South Carolina, Virginia, and Pompano,
Florida). Yes, the landing on
| >the return trip back to Pompano, Florida counts as one
of the 3 landings.
| >>{Q&A-433}
|
| Peter.
| --
| Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
| E-mail replies to but remove
the A and the B.
| Please do NOT copy usenet posts to email - it is NOT
necessary.

Jim is certainly correct on this. The flights do not have to be on
the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks. The flight is
not over, really, for cross country logging purposes, until you return
to the original starting point, .



On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:40:52 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>The long flight does NOT have to be on the same day, it is
>acceptable to have a stop, but it must be as it says below
>[regulation] landings at three places, with one a straight
>line of 250 NM. I would log the flight as stages, with the
>citation of 61.129 in the remarks, with notes that it was a
>continuous trip, with stops at three airports. This may
>have already been meet with you previous experience. I
>would endorse you on the trips you listed, but the issue is
>what the designated examiner wants. Ask your CFI who he
>would send you to for the test and then both of you should
>speak to the eaxminer. But nowhere in the regulation does
>it say "one day" so as long as the flights are all legs
>longer than 50 miles and the longest is 250 miles straight
>line from the departure, you should be OK.
>Be sure the flights are SOLO, no passengers allowed, no dual
>allowed.
> http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl
>§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience.
>(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided
>in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a
>commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and
>single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of
>flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
>
>(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be
>in airplanes.
>
>(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which
>includes at least-
>
>(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
>
>(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10
>hours must be in airplanes.
>
>(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in
>§61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least-
>
>(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5
>hours must be in a single-engine airplane;
>
>(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a
>retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch
>propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant
>seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of
>training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable
>pitch propeller;
>
>(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
>single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of
>a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
>miles from the original point of departure;
>
>(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
>single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting
>of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
>miles from the original point of departure; and
>
>(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for
>the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the
>date of the test.
>
>(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on
>the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part,
>which includes at least-
>
>(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical
>miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three
>points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least
>250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
>However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the
>longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of
>at least 150 nautical miles; and
>
>(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10
>landings (with each landing involving a flight in the
>traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control
>tower.
>
>"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>|I cannot find an answer on the FAA Q&A site (the one with
>the personal
>| login, but which in fact appears to be rather bare), so I
>wrote to
>| them. However they often don't reply with anything
>meaningful, so I
>| would appreciate any references anybody here can dig out.
>|
>| I am doing the CPL in the UK and the CFI says that it all
>needs to be
>| done on the same day. The winter weather here is dreadful
>and doing a
>| ~ 600nm trip (there and back) under VFR is quite
>difficult, unless I
>| skirt around the coastline at low level, on autopilot, all
>the way to
>| Scotland. I have the IR also but can't really do it that
>way :) It's
>| also a waste of a lot of fuel for what might be a
>pointless logbook
>| entry.
>|
>| This is what I wrote to them:
>|
>| **************
>|
>| I am doing the FAA commercial certificate, and need
>guidance on the
>| 250/300nm VFR solo flight with three landings.
>|
>| I have about 700 hours and have flown all over Europe, and
>have lots
>| of flights in my logbook which are along the lines of
>|
>| 500nm
>| 500nm
>| 2 days' stop
>| 500nm
>| 500nm
>|
>| Some get closer to a 1-night stop:
>|
>| 25/8/03 EGBW LFBT 544NM
>| 26/8/03 LFBT EGBW
>| 26/8/03 EGBW EGKB
>|
>| or are much longer than 300nm GC distance:
>|
>| 31/8/03 EGKA LFBZ 444NM
>| 31/8/03 LFBZ LEAX 417NM
>| 3/9/03 LEAX LFBZ
>| 3/9/03 LFBZ EGKA
>|
>| and some have a number of landings but never 3 on the same
>day:
>|
>| 12/9/04 EGKA LSZG 374NM
>| 12/9/04 LSZG LSPV 59NM
>| 16/9/04 LSPV LSGS
>| 16/9/04 LSGS LSPV
>| 17/9/04 LSPV LGKR 690NM
>| 18/9/04 LGKR LGST
>| 23/9/04 LGST LGKR
>| 24/9/04 LGKR LFKB
>| 25/9/04 LFKB EGKA
>|
>| etc
>|
>| I cannot find a flight which has all 3 landings on the
>*same* day.
>|
>| Also, is it necessary for all 3 landings to be at
>different airports?
>|
>| **************
>|
>| Recently, somebody sent me this, purporting to come from
>John Lynch
>| himself, but I cannot find an online reference to it. I
>have tried
>| googling on various verbatim phrases from it but nothing
>turns up.
>|
>| >
>| >>Quote:
>| >>QUESTION: A question has come up regarding §
>61.129(a)(4)(i) from an
>| >examiner in our district.
>| >>
>| >>A private pilot conducted a cross-country flight from
>Pompano, Fl to
>| >Virginia making ONE stop in South Carolina. He stayed
>overnight visiting friends
>| >and the next day he returned to Florida using the
>reverse route. He now wants
>| >to apply this cross-country flight to meet the
>requirement for §
>| >61.129(a)(4)(i).
>| >>
>| >>The questions are: 1) If this is one flight, how many
>days can elapse and
>| >still be counted as one flight? i.e. one night, three
>nights, 2 weeks, 1
>| >month, etc?
>| >>
>| >>ANSWER: Ref. § 61.129(a)(4)(i) and § 61.1(b)(3)(ii);
>Yes, it is a good
>| >cross-country. This cross-country can be counted for §
>61.129(a)(4)(i) purposes
>| >and also for § 61.65(d)(1) purposes.
>| >
>| >>If my geography is correct, a cross-country flight from
>Pompano, Florida to
>| >Virginia and return is a ". . . cross-country flight of
>not less than 300
>| >nautical miles total distance." And the first stop in
>South Carolina is ". . .
>| >at least is a straight-line distance of at least 250
>nautical miles from the
>| >original departure point" (i.e., Pompano, Florida). And
>the cross-country
>| >flight involved ". . . landings at a minimum of three
>points . . ." (i.e.,
>| >airport at South Carolina, Virginia, and Pompano,
>Florida). Yes, the landing on
>| >the return trip back to Pompano, Florida counts as one
>of the 3 landings.
>| >>{Q&A-433}
>|
>| Peter.
>| --
>| Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
>| E-mail replies to but remove
>the A and the B.
>| Please do NOT copy usenet posts to email - it is NOT
>necessary.
>

> The flights do not have to be on
> the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks. The flight is
> not over, really, for cross country logging purposes, until you return
> to the original starting point, .

The flight is not over until you say it's over. There is no definition
of "flight", and therefore you can declare a single "flight" to be
whatever combination of legs you want it to be. This is supported by
the FAA FAQ.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Bill Zaleski" > wrote in message
...
> Jim is certainly correct on this. The flights do not have to be on
> the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks. The flight is
> not over, really, for cross country logging purposes, until you return
> to the original starting point, .

where does it say you have to return to the original starting point? For
example taking a plane from Niagara Falls to Providence Rhode Island with
stops at Rochester Pittsfield and Barnes should do the trick.

You are correct. There is no requirement to return to the original
starting point. The FAQ's did state though, that when/if you do return
to the original point of departure, the flight is considered
completed.

I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took it down, if anyone
wants it. The FAA says that it is not any good any more. Pretty
stupid to call it policy, then remove it from availability.


On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:13:07 -0000, "Chris" >
wrote:

>
>"Bill Zaleski" > wrote in message
...
>> Jim is certainly correct on this. The flights do not have to be on
>> the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks. The flight is
>> not over, really, for cross country logging purposes, until you return
>> to the original starting point, .
>
>where does it say you have to return to the original starting point? For
>example taking a plane from Niagara Falls to Providence Rhode Island with
>stops at Rochester Pittsfield and Barnes should do the trick.
>

> Do you have a URL to this FAQ? That's what I need.

The faq is difficult to find, and may not even be up any more. It seems
the FAA can make up its own rules as it goes along.

I have a copy of the FAQ for part 61, REVISION #17, DATE: AUGUST 22,
2002 INCORPORATING Q&A #s: 471-522 WITH ALL PREVIOUS Q&As 1 - 470

MAINTAINED BY ALLAN PINKSTON
PILOT EXAMINER STANDARDIZATION TEAM, AFS-640
Contact: Allan Pinkston phone: (405) 954 - 6472
E-Mail:

I can send it to you if you like.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took it down, if anyone
> wants it. The FAA says that it is not any good any more. Pretty
> stupid to call it policy, then remove it from availability.

Where did they say it's "no good anymore"?

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In the US,

Cross Country definition for a rating requirement 61.1(b)(3)D(ii)(B),50nm

Distance and landings: 61.129(a)(4)(i), "SOLO" One "flight" or Trip, of at
least 300nm with landings at a minimum of three points, at least one landing
250nm straight line from the original departure point

To meet this requirement I flew from Lea Vegas NV, to Mesquite (NE of Las
Vegas) to "stage the aircraft" and there declared the beginning of my trip.
I flew from Mesquite to Leverne-Brackett CA (my first landing) and had a
late breakfast with friends at the airport. From there to Gillespie Field in
SanDiego CA to meet another friend. Gillespie is more than 250nm straight
line from Mesquite and my second landing. I then refueled and returned to
Las Vegas (VGT) NV, more than enough distance for my 300nm total required
and my 3rd landing. At that point I declared my "trip" complete for the
requirement of 61.129(a)(4)(i)

BT

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Macklin" > wrote
>
>>But nowhere in the regulation does
>>it say "one day" so as long as the flights are all legs
>>longer than 50 miles and the longest is 250 miles straight
>>line from the departure, you should be OK.
>
> Thank you Jim - but where is the requirement for all legs to be over
> 50nm?
>
> When I did the IFR x/c for the IR, we did the flight with an initial
> 250nm leg and then flew to a nearby airport to achieve the three
> different IAPs.
>
> In fact I can't see why the three landings cannot all be done at the
> same airport, say 300nm+ away from the point of departure.

>>Cross Country definition for a rating requirement 61.1(b)(3)D(ii)(B),50nm
> Yes, the first leg has to be >250nm but I can't see a requirement for
> the subsequent legs to be >50nm.
>
> I know a x/c flight is anything over >50nm with the departure and
> destination being different places, but I don't see how this applies
> to this flight.

It is not the first leg that has to be >250nm. At least one landing has
to be more than 250 nm from the original point of departure. The other
legs, it appears, can be any length.

> I know a x/c flight is anything over >50nm with the departure and
> destination being different places,

No, for this purpose x/c means the departure and destination have to be
more than 50 nm apart. You can't just fly >50nm and land right next
door, and call it a x/c for purposes of meeting commercial requirements.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

the first leg does not have to be >250nm for 61.129, but only one landing of
at least 3 different points at least that distance from the original
starting point

In the original post, you asked where the Cross country distance definition
was, it is 50nm and is in 61.1, this is primarily geared to those that may
only make lots of 30nm trips from "home" and want to count the x-c time
towards a rating.

you can log anything you want as x-c, but to count it toward a rating, it
needs to be at least 50nm

I did not say that each leg had to be 50nm, if you wanted, you could land 16
times, every 25miles as long as you finally got 250nm from where you declare
the start point and then head back.

I should have added to the original question, it does not have to be in one
day, if the weather shuts you down, or your visiting friends for the night
you can continue on the next day or 3 days later.

Just as long as you are SOLO.

BT

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>
> "BT" > wrote
>
>>Cross Country definition for a rating requirement 61.1(b)(3)D(ii)(B),50nm
>
> Yes, the first leg has to be >250nm but I can't see a requirement for
> the subsequent legs to be >50nm.
>
> I know a x/c flight is anything over >50nm with the departure and
> destination being different places, but I don't see how this applies
> to this flight.
>
> It certainly isn't standard practice even in the USA, where I did my
> IR.

> I should have added to the original question, it does not have to be in one
> day, if the weather shuts you down, or your visiting friends for the night
> you can continue on the next day or 3 days later.
>
> Just as long as you are SOLO.

It doesn't even have to be continuous, or in the same airplane. You can
fly somewhere solo, fly some friends around (separate flight), and
then fly somewhere else again solo (continuing the original flight,
land, switch airplanes, fly to a third place (continuing the original
flight)... You have a lot of latitude in what you consider a "flight".

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

FAR Part 1 and Part 61 have a requirement for Cross-country.
%0 NM is the benchmark for C-X to count when logging, beyond
26 NM requires student pilots to be endorsed for X-C.

Technically, a flight with multiple lands must have a first
leg of 51 NM and be followed by a landing every 5 miles for
three hundred miles and they'd all be X-C creditable toward
X-C requirements, but the LONG CROSS-COUNTRY requires a
single 250 mile leg between landings, the required number of
landings in the C-X section should be a different airports.


"Peter" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
|
| >But nowhere in the regulation does
| >it say "one day" so as long as the flights are all legs
| >longer than 50 miles and the longest is 250 miles
straight
| >line from the departure, you should be OK.
|
| Thank you Jim - but where is the requirement for all legs
to be over
| 50nm?
|
| When I did the IFR x/c for the IR, we did the flight with
an initial
| 250nm leg and then flew to a nearby airport to achieve the
three
| different IAPs.
|
| In fact I can't see why the three landings cannot all be
done at the
| same airport, say 300nm+ away from the point of departure.

It helps to mark the flights in your logbook that are used
to meet certain requirements. When then FAA looks at a
logbook for an ATP or a DE looks during the PP and CP, they
often ask, which/when did you log the time for some
"special" flight. It saves time if you have some reference
to the regulation or at lest a mark of some sort.


"Jose" > wrote in message
. ..
|> I should have added to the original question, it does not
have to be in one
| > day, if the weather shuts you down, or your visiting
friends for the night
| > you can continue on the next day or 3 days later.
| >
| > Just as long as you are SOLO.
|
| It doesn't even have to be continuous, or in the same
airplane. You can
| fly somewhere solo, fly some friends around (separate
flight), and
| then fly somewhere else again solo (continuing the
original flight,
| land, switch airplanes, fly to a third place (continuing
the original
| flight)... You have a lot of latitude in what you
consider a "flight".
|
| Jose
| --
| "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing.
Unfortunately, nobody knows
| what they are." - (mike).
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> Technically, a flight with multiple lands must have a first
> leg of 51 NM...

Where is it that the =first= leg is the one that has to be >50nm?

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> FAR Part 1 and Part 61 have a requirement for Cross-country.
> %0 NM is the benchmark for C-X to count when logging, beyond
> 26 NM requires student pilots to be endorsed for X-C.
>
> Technically, a flight with multiple lands must have a first
> leg of 51 NM and be followed by a landing every 5 miles for
> three hundred miles and they'd all be X-C creditable toward
> X-C requirements, but the LONG CROSS-COUNTRY requires a
> single 250 mile leg between landings, the required number of
> landings in the C-X section should be a different airports.
>
>

Where does it say a "single 250nm leg"?
I say.. 61.129 does not, It says a trip of at least 300nm with 3 landings
and one landing at least 250nm straight line from the starting airport.

BT

I received an email via the FAA subscription system from Mr. Ballough,
who is/was the manager of FAA flight standards about 6-8 months ago,
recinding the memorandum that is at the top of the last FAQ revision
(#22). It effectively said that the FAQ's are no longer policy and
that was the reason for the removal of them from the FAA site.

Too bad that the FAQ's were the best thing we had, and the feds chose
to replace them with nothing but the suggestion to make inquiries to
the FSDO.




On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:06:46 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>> I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took it down, if anyone
>> wants it. The FAA says that it is not any good any more. Pretty
>> stupid to call it policy, then remove it from availability.
>
>Where did they say it's "no good anymore"?
>
>Jose

> I received an email via the FAA subscription system from Mr. Ballough,

I gotta get me one of them.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/


"Bill Zaleski" > wrote in message
...
|I received an email via the FAA subscription system from
Mr. Ballough,
| who is/was the manager of FAA flight standards about 6-8
months ago,
| recinding the memorandum that is at the top of the last
FAQ revision
| (#22). It effectively said that the FAQ's are no longer
policy and
| that was the reason for the removal of them from the FAA
site.
|
| Too bad that the FAQ's were the best thing we had, and the
feds chose
| to replace them with nothing but the suggestion to make
inquiries to
| the FSDO.
|
|
|
|
| On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:06:46 GMT, Jose
>
| wrote:
|
| >> I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took it
down, if anyone
| >> wants it. The FAA says that it is not any good any
more. Pretty
| >> stupid to call it policy, then remove it from
availability.
| >
| >Where did they say it's "no good anymore"?
| >
| >Jose
|

On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 22:17:30 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>> I received an email via the FAA subscription system from Mr. Ballough,
>
>I gotta get me one of them.
>
>Jose

I just erased it a few weeks ago, or I would post it, sorry.

Jim: Is there something in particular in this link that I am missing?

On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 20:30:42 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

> http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/
>
>
>"Bill Zaleski" > wrote in message
...
>|I received an email via the FAA subscription system from
>Mr. Ballough,
>| who is/was the manager of FAA flight standards about 6-8
>months ago,
>| recinding the memorandum that is at the top of the last
>FAQ revision
>| (#22). It effectively said that the FAQ's are no longer
>policy and
>| that was the reason for the removal of them from the FAA
>site.
>|
>| Too bad that the FAQ's were the best thing we had, and the
>feds chose
>| to replace them with nothing but the suggestion to make
>inquiries to
>| the FSDO.
>|
>|
>|
>|
>| On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:06:46 GMT, Jose
>
>| wrote:
>|
>| >> I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took it
>down, if anyone
>| >> wants it. The FAA says that it is not any good any
>more. Pretty
>| >> stupid to call it policy, then remove it from
>availability.
>| >
>| >Where did they say it's "no good anymore"?
>| >
>| >Jose
>|
>

Yes, it is the "book" that tells an FAA Inspector (General
Aviation) how to do every task they do and since it is
on-line they stopped the other letters.



"Bill Zaleski" > wrote in message
...
| Jim: Is there something in particular in this link that I
am missing?
|
| On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 20:30:42 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
| > wrote:
|
| >
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/
| >
| >
| >"Bill Zaleski" > wrote in
message
| ...
| >|I received an email via the FAA subscription system from
| >Mr. Ballough,
| >| who is/was the manager of FAA flight standards about
6-8
| >months ago,
| >| recinding the memorandum that is at the top of the last
| >FAQ revision
| >| (#22). It effectively said that the FAQ's are no
longer
| >policy and
| >| that was the reason for the removal of them from the
FAA
| >site.
| >|
| >| Too bad that the FAQ's were the best thing we had, and
the
| >feds chose
| >| to replace them with nothing but the suggestion to make
| >inquiries to
| >| the FSDO.
| >|
| >|
| >|
| >|
| >| On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:06:46 GMT, Jose
| >
| >| wrote:
| >|
| >| >> I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took it
| >down, if anyone
| >| >> wants it. The FAA says that it is not any good any
| >more. Pretty
| >| >> stupid to call it policy, then remove it from
| >availability.
| >| >
| >| >Where did they say it's "no good anymore"?
| >| >
| >| >Jose
| >|
| >
|

closer
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/


"Bill Zaleski" > wrote in message
...
| Jim: Is there something in particular in this link that I
am missing?
|
| On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 20:30:42 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
| > wrote:
|
| >
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/
| >
| >
| >"Bill Zaleski" > wrote in
message
| ...
| >|I received an email via the FAA subscription system from
| >Mr. Ballough,
| >| who is/was the manager of FAA flight standards about
6-8
| >months ago,
| >| recinding the memorandum that is at the top of the last
| >FAQ revision
| >| (#22). It effectively said that the FAQ's are no
longer
| >policy and
| >| that was the reason for the removal of them from the
FAA
| >site.
| >|
| >| Too bad that the FAQ's were the best thing we had, and
the
| >feds chose
| >| to replace them with nothing but the suggestion to make
| >inquiries to
| >| the FSDO.
| >|
| >|
| >|
| >|
| >| On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:06:46 GMT, Jose
| >
| >| wrote:
| >|
| >| >> I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took it
| >down, if anyone
| >| >> wants it. The FAA says that it is not any good any
| >more. Pretty
| >| >> stupid to call it policy, then remove it from
| >availability.
| >| >
| >| >Where did they say it's "no good anymore"?
| >| >
| >| >Jose
| >|
| >
|

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/


"Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message ...
| Yes, it is the "book" that tells an FAA Inspector (General
| Aviation) how to do every task they do and since it is
| on-line they stopped the other letters.
|
|
|
| "Bill Zaleski" > wrote in
message
| ...
|| Jim: Is there something in particular in this link that
I
| am missing?
||
|| On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 20:30:42 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
|| > wrote:
||
|| >
|
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/
|| >
|| >
|| >"Bill Zaleski" > wrote in
| message
|| ...
|| >|I received an email via the FAA subscription system
from
|| >Mr. Ballough,
|| >| who is/was the manager of FAA flight standards about
| 6-8
|| >months ago,
|| >| recinding the memorandum that is at the top of the
last
|| >FAQ revision
|| >| (#22). It effectively said that the FAQ's are no
| longer
|| >policy and
|| >| that was the reason for the removal of them from the
| FAA
|| >site.
|| >|
|| >| Too bad that the FAQ's were the best thing we had, and
| the
|| >feds chose
|| >| to replace them with nothing but the suggestion to
make
|| >inquiries to
|| >| the FSDO.
|| >|
|| >|
|| >|
|| >|
|| >| On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:06:46 GMT, Jose
|| >
|| >| wrote:
|| >|
|| >| >> I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took
it
|| >down, if anyone
|| >| >> wants it. The FAA says that it is not any good any
|| >more. Pretty
|| >| >> stupid to call it policy, then remove it from
|| >availability.
|| >| >
|| >| >Where did they say it's "no good anymore"?
|| >| >
|| >| >Jose
|| >|
|| >
||
|
|

>> Where did they say it's "no good anymore"?
> http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/

There are over 20 PDF files on that link. It's a good site, but none of
them (by their titles) give me a clue as to rescinding the FAQ. Which
one is it? (so I don't have to download and read 20 PDFs)

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I haven't downloaded all of them either.



"Jose" > wrote in message
t...
| >> Where did they say it's "no good anymore"?
| >
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/
|
| There are over 20 PDF files on that link. It's a good
site, but none of
| them (by their titles) give me a clue as to rescinding the
FAQ. Which
| one is it? (so I don't have to download and read 20 PDFs)
|
| Jose
| --
| "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing.
Unfortunately, nobody knows
| what they are." - (mike).
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> I haven't downloaded all of them either.

Ok, in which one did you read that the FAQ is no longer valid?

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

None, that wasn't my point in posting the link. Having
those Inspector manuals on-line makes the FAQs unneeded, you
have the direct source.



"Jose" > wrote in message
t...
|> I haven't downloaded all of them either.
|
| Ok, in which one did you read that the FAQ is no longer
valid?
|
| Jose
| --
| "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing.
Unfortunately, nobody knows
| what they are." - (mike).
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> None, that wasn't my point in posting the link. Having
> those Inspector manuals on-line makes the FAQs unneeded, you
> have the direct source.

I disagree. The FARs should make the FAQ unnecessary, but that
obviously isn't the case. And the point wasn't that the FAQs were
"unneeded", it was that they "no longer mirror the FAA policy", implying
that the policy changed, or that the answers in the FAQ are now incorrect.

It is good to have these Inspector manuals available however.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

The FAR makes a lawyer necessary, they are written by
lawyers.




"Jose" > wrote in message
. ..
|> None, that wasn't my point in posting the link. Having
| > those Inspector manuals on-line makes the FAQs unneeded,
you
| > have the direct source.
|
| I disagree. The FARs should make the FAQ unnecessary, but
that
| obviously isn't the case. And the point wasn't that the
FAQs were
| "unneeded", it was that they "no longer mirror the FAA
policy", implying
| that the policy changed, or that the answers in the FAQ
are now incorrect.
|
| It is good to have these Inspector manuals available
however.
|
| Jose
| --
| "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing.
Unfortunately, nobody knows
| what they are." - (mike).
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>
> This may seem strange to Americans but pilots doing FAA
> certificates/ratings outside the USA are doing them under a regime
> where you never know which US$500/checkride DPE you are going to get,
> or indeed if one will turn up at all when you have done your training.
>
> I did my IR in Arizona for this reason, but examiners are again
> becoming available outside the USA which is why I am trying to do the
> Commercial stuff here.

In England, the 300nm flight is difficult especially going 250nm from the
start point. It invariably means its an international trip or over a lot of
water.

I manage to squeeze my in by a trip from Southend to Lands End and back to
Elstree via Plymouth and Henstridge.

The thought of having to go to France or across to Ireland was too much and
the weather was too bad for Scotland (and that would have meant Glasgow.

When you look at the shape of Great Britain you can see the problem.

"BT" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
> ...
>> FAR Part 1 and Part 61 have a requirement for Cross-country.
>> %0 NM is the benchmark for C-X to count when logging, beyond
>> 26 NM requires student pilots to be endorsed for X-C.
>>
>> Technically, a flight with multiple lands must have a first
>> leg of 51 NM and be followed by a landing every 5 miles for
>> three hundred miles and they'd all be X-C creditable toward
>> X-C requirements, but the LONG CROSS-COUNTRY requires a
>> single 250 mile leg between landings, the required number of
>> landings in the C-X section should be a different airports.
>>
>>
>
> Where does it say a "single 250nm leg"?
> I say.. 61.129 does not, It says a trip of at least 300nm with 3 landings
> and one landing at least 250nm straight line from the starting airport.

Jims making it up as he goes along

That's why Hawaii has an exception.



"Chris" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Peter" > wrote in message
| ...
| >
| > This may seem strange to Americans but pilots doing FAA
| > certificates/ratings outside the USA are doing them
under a regime
| > where you never know which US$500/checkride DPE you are
going to get,
| > or indeed if one will turn up at all when you have done
your training.
| >
| > I did my IR in Arizona for this reason, but examiners
are again
| > becoming available outside the USA which is why I am
trying to do the
| > Commercial stuff here.
|
| In England, the 300nm flight is difficult especially going
250nm from the
| start point. It invariably means its an international trip
or over a lot of
| water.
|
| I manage to squeeze my in by a trip from Southend to Lands
End and back to
| Elstree via Plymouth and Henstridge.
|
| The thought of having to go to France or across to Ireland
was too much and
| the weather was too bad for Scotland (and that would have
meant Glasgow.
|
| When you look at the shape of Great Britain you can see
the problem.
|
|

61.129
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical
miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three
points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least
250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the
longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of
at least 150 nautical miles; and

The intention us a single long leg, not 25 ten mile hops.









"Chris" > wrote in message
...
|
| "BT" > wrote in message
| ...
| >
| > "Jim Macklin" >
wrote in message
| > ...
| >> FAR Part 1 and Part 61 have a requirement for
Cross-country.
| >> %0 NM is the benchmark for C-X to count when logging,
beyond
| >> 26 NM requires student pilots to be endorsed for X-C.
| >>
| >> Technically, a flight with multiple lands must have a
first
| >> leg of 51 NM and be followed by a landing every 5 miles
for
| >> three hundred miles and they'd all be X-C creditable
toward
| >> X-C requirements, but the LONG CROSS-COUNTRY requires a
| >> single 250 mile leg between landings, the required
number of
| >> landings in the C-X section should be a different
airports.
| >>
| >>
| >
| > Where does it say a "single 250nm leg"?
| > I say.. 61.129 does not, It says a trip of at least
300nm with 3 landings
| > and one landing at least 250nm straight line from the
starting airport.
|
| Jims making it up as he goes along
|
|

> 61.129
> (i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical
> miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three
> points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least
> 250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
> However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the
> longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of
> at least 150 nautical miles; and
>
> The intention us a single long leg, not 25 ten mile hops.

I don't see that intent there. IN fact, I see an intent to =allow= a
series of ten mile hops.

"landings at a minimum of three points" (there could easily be more
landings) and "one of which is a straight-line distance of at least
250 nautical miles" (not "one leg at least 250 miles long").

I imagine (and this is my imagination, not an FAA statement) that the
intent is to show competence in navigation, weather decisionmaking, and
ability to operate away from familiar surroundings, all of which are
important.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I suggest you call the nearest FSDO or the FAA in OKC and
ask them, I have.



"Jose" > wrote in message
t...
|> 61.129
| > (i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300
nautical
| > miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of
three
| > points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at
least
| > 250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
| > However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the
| > longest segment need only have a straight-line distance
of
| > at least 150 nautical miles; and
| >
| > The intention us a single long leg, not 25 ten mile
hops.
|
| I don't see that intent there. IN fact, I see an intent
to =allow= a
| series of ten mile hops.
|
| "landings at a minimum of three points" (there could
easily be more
| landings) and "one of which is a straight-line distance of
at least
| 250 nautical miles" (not "one leg at least 250 miles
long").
|
| I imagine (and this is my imagination, not an FAA
statement) that the
| intent is to show competence in navigation, weather
decisionmaking, and
| ability to operate away from familiar surroundings, all of
which are
| important.
|
| Jose
| --
| "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing.
Unfortunately, nobody knows
| what they are." - (mike).
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
>I suggest you call the nearest FSDO or the FAA in OKC and
> ask them, I have.
>
>

I don't need too make a phone call, I've already completed the commercial
requirements, my instructor approved the flight, the DPE accepted the
flight.

I "repositioned" from North Las Vegas NV to Mesquite NV, landed and declared
the start of my 300nm x-c. I landed at Leverne Bracket CA for breakfast with
friends, I landed at Gillespie Field in SanDiego for a late lunch with
another friend and refueled, more than 250nm from Mesquite and then I
returned to VGT.

More than 300nm trip from Mesquite to Leverne to Gillespie to North Las
Vegas, and 3 landings (Leverne, Gillespie and North Las Vegas) and more than
250nm to the farthest distant airport, (Mesquite to Gillespie).

Requirement complete and within the scope of the FAR 61.129

BT

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Chris" > wrote
>
>>In England, the 300nm flight is difficult especially going 250nm from the
>>start point. It invariably means its an international trip or over a lot
>>of
>>water.
>>
>>I manage to squeeze my in by a trip from Southend to Lands End and back to
>>Elstree via Plymouth and Henstridge.
>>
>>The thought of having to go to France or across to Ireland was too much
>>and
>>the weather was too bad for Scotland (and that would have meant Glasgow.
>>
>>When you look at the shape of Great Britain you can see the problem.
>
> True.
>
> I would do it from say Southend to Dublin. 275nm GC distance and if
> one bent the leg a bit then it would be > 300nm. Then one has to do 2
> more landings somewhere, and I guess landings at the same airport
> don't count (though the reg doesn't prohibit them).
>
> Or one could do it coming back to the UK; one could land at Southend,
> then Lydd, then Shoreham for example. Done.
>
> There is absolutely no doubt that most American based DPEs would
> accept my own x/c flights which are much longer e.g.
> http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/corfu/whole-trip.gif
> but the CFI I've got has so far refused. These were with a passenger
> though (which the FAQ - if not the FAR - rules out) but I have
> http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/leax/route1.gif
> and back which was solo.

Dublin gives a water crossing that's why I did Southend to Lands End via
Plymouth then back to Elstree via Hens.

The interesting conundrum I had was about getting back late i.e. after
sunset. The FAR requires the trip to be done VFR but there is no night VFR
in the UK. Its either SVFR or IFR. SVFR only counts in controlled airspace.
So try explaining that we can fly IFR without an instrument rating to a
DPE.
The issue is VMC and IMC as much as VFR and IFR. The difference is subtle
but there is a big difference.

BTW, The FAR makes it clear it has to be solo.

> I would do it from say Southend to Dublin. 275nm GC distance and if
> one bent the leg a bit then it would be > 300nm.

IF this is for the US certificate, then you don't have to bend the legs.
Just land. Then take off and fly another 26 nm in any direction and
land. Now you've flown more than 300 nm. Satisfy the other criteria
and you're done.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>> I would do it from say Southend to Dublin. 275nm GC distance and if
>> one bent the leg a bit then it would be > 300nm.
>
> IF this is for the US certificate, then you don't have to bend the legs.
> Just land. Then take off and fly another 26 nm in any direction and land.
> Now you've flown more than 300 nm. Satisfy the other criteria and you're
> done.
>
> Jose

Duff trip that one anyway with the need to comply with the Terrorism Act on
a trip to Ireland. Much better going to France where that does not apply.

No, three [ or more] different airports.
§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided
in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a
commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and
single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of
flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be
in airplanes.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which
includes at least-

(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10
hours must be in airplanes.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in
§61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least-

(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5
hours must be in a single-engine airplane;

(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a
retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch
propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant
seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of
training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable
pitch propeller;

(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of
a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting
of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
miles from the original point of departure; and

(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for
the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the
date of the test.

(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on
the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part,
which includes at least-

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical
miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three
points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least
250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the
longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of
at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10
landings (with each landing involving a flight in the
traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control
tower.

(b) For an airplane multiengine rating. Except as provided
in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a
commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and
multiengine class rating must log at least 250 hours of
flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be
in airplanes.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which
includes at least-

(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10
hours must be in airplanes.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in
§61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least-

(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5
hours must be in a multiengine airplane;

(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has
a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch
propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant
seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training
in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable
pitch propeller;

(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a
total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles
from the original point of departure;

(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
multiengine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of
a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
miles from the original point of departure; and

(v) 3 hours in a multiengine airplane in preparation for the
practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date
of the test.

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane
or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in
command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized
instructor (either of which may be credited towards the
flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this
section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2)
of this part that includes at least-

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical
miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three
points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least
250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the
longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of
at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10
landings (with each landing involving a flight with a
traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control
tower.



"Peter" > wrote in message
...
| Is it OK to fly > 300nm and then do three landings at the
*same*
| airport?